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Hi Matthew,
Thank you so much for your response. I appreciate it because this is exactly why I posted the discussion: to hear what others made of the info. I didn’t know what to think of it. And I appreciate the opportunity to have an intelligent, adult conversation around it.
I think all your points are valid – except for the part about me misleading others, and if you think that’s my intention I ask you to reconsider.. I’m exploring this because it’s important to me and I care about what Anastasia says – and yes I agree I should think about this carefully, and your response helped me to dig deeper. So this response is lengthy but I wanted to lay it all out and would love to hear others’ thoughts on any or all of the following points. It’s divided into two parts. Part One is my trying to ascertain if all sex outside of procreation counts as sex in lust and therefore a sin and should be avoided. Part Two is my thoughts in the case all sex outside procreation is sin; that Anastasia is recommending that we be celibate except for when intentionally making a child. Part 1 and 2 are sort of contradictory. At first I got started writing part 2, then I got busy, and then had more thoughts and came back and wrote part 1 and then went back to part 2 and finished it. Part 3 is what I wrote after I went back and checked the book. For those of you who want to save time, reading just part 3 could suffice.
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Part 1: sex in lust : is there sex in love, without trying to make a child?
She clearly says “sex in lust is a sin”. But she doesn’t clearly ever say “sex outside of procreation is a sin.” So I guess what I was trying to get at in my original post content is, what counts as sex in lust?
Before meeting Anastasia, Vladimir invited women onto his ship and flirted with them and it sounds like he had sex with them- or as I would say is more apt for the situation, fucked them. Because there was no love, no knowing the person, no real regard or care for the person. And afterward it’s good bye. I think we can all agree that’s sex in lust. And I can say from experience that that kind of sex is hollow, and I can indeed agree that the “pleasure is an illusion” like Anastasia says, and “harmful” like you said.
At this point as I wrote this I was like let me google the exact meaning of the term lust. It says “very strong sexual desire”. So .. perhaps we can say that “sex in lust” is “having sex for the sake of having sex”, or like, only for the physical pleasure.
And that’s why I’m thinking about this and it doesn’t seem exactly clear cut to me, because when I have sex with my husband it’s not for the sake of having sex, for the physical pleasure. At least, not only for that. Like, it won’t do to just do it with anyone. I think Anastasia says it too in book 1 when Vladimir tried to rape her, something about “someone who’s the only one for her”. So if a committed couple makes love, (as opposed to strangers fucking), does that count as sex in lust? a sin?
Now, I get that it could very well be. After all Anastasia says something like “even in marriages” or like “many laws and social structures have been created to uphold this illusion”.
So even if it’s a loving, committed, loyal couple, if they’re having sex and if there’s a desire to satisfy a sexual urge, then perhaps it can be considered “sex in lust”, and Anastasia would not recommend it.
Although that seems difficult- to have sex without any sexual desire. Like we can’t argue that sex feels good physically and it’s impossible to not anticipate that going into it or like it. I mean it sounds like Vladimir’s experience with Anastasia was very pleasurable, although in an unusual way (I wish he explained more, although I respect the privacy too).
So where that leads me is, what’s advisable is to have sex with the strong desire to have a child, rather than a strong desire to just feel good in one’s genitals.
I’m still not sure if sex with a strong desire to connect with one’s soulmate is okay. In fact, I think it’s okay. I’m just not sure what Anastasia will say about it. Maybe she’ll say sex isn’t necessary to connect, and be intimate?
But wouldn’t that be like saying you don’t need to hug to feel connected to someone? True, you can look them in the eye and smile, or talk, and feel connected. But a hug is nice too. I feel connected when I hug. And I think of sex in a similar way (when with my beloved- not with any stranger).
Now, I could be totally wrong. Sex outside of procreation could be harmful, no exceptions, no matter the intention or whatever. I’m not saying this sarcastically, I’m truly convinced that I can be wrong and I’m trying to think things through. (Unfortunately I don’t have super speed mind like those in Anastasia’s world). Also of course i have a lot of conditioning to sift through.
Another point I’ve been thinking about is what she says about child conceived from sex in lust, like, she says no one would want to be the product of lust. I can agree. Now here’s a thought; what if a couple was having sex regularly, but with a strong desire to have a child? Like, let’s say they were having sex before they decided to have a child together, and let’s say they’ll continue to have sex after having that child. But once they decided they want to have a child together, their sex was intended for that (and pleasure too). Does that count as being product of lust, like, if it was intentional and they were actively trying to conceive? I don’t think so.. but I also think it could be that Anastasia is referring to the relationship as a whole. And she might say that such a relationship is based on lust.
I just want to clearly state that I’m not trying to put words into Anastasia’s mouth. I’m trying to think through this and wish I could ask her these things, but i can’t so that’s why I’m wondering out loud and asking for fellow readers’ opinions.
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Part 2: My thoughts in the case that Anastasia is indeed recommending us to have sex only for procreation:
Even if I don’t understand it completely in a mental way, what made a big impression on me – and made me want to consider taking her advice on this – as I read the books (like that very part in book 1, and in book 2 when grandfather points out the “illusory people” and the girl wearing high heels) was the purity of love.
A thing to note is that, like you mentioned, Anastasia said something along the lines of, “now that you’ve experienced this you won’t want to have sex again”. I guess one reason it’s hard for me to understand it all is because I haven’t had such an experience.
But as I was writing this out and thinking about it, a notion occurred to me: Anastasia turns around and says to him, (not exact words cuz I can’t get to the book right now), “was that what you guys call ‘sex’ in your word?” And Vladimir thinks, “indeed, no. Then, what was it?”
This makes me think, in a relationship of ideal, pure love, there is no place for “sex” as we know it. Like, even when they “have sex” for procreation, it’s not sex as we know it.
Also, part one above was about sex in love, but Vladimir says to grandfather, I think, that he doesn’t love her in the usual sense of love. So it’s possible that what’s normally considered love in our world is not pure love, it’s more lust.
I try to imagine how it’ll be to be with a man, knowing we won’t ever have sex except the one or few times to have a child. How it is to be with a man knowing he’ll never expect sex from me. And I think that could be freeing. Even healing (after all the sexual darkness we go through in this society!). Though it’s hard to imagine how it is. That’s partly why I opened up this discussion post, to see if any readers have actually implemented this, and how they feel about it.
One thing I can say is that I certainly don’t want to be loved by a man based on the sexual pleasure my body can offer his. That’s like being objectified. I want to be loved for who I am. I think my husband loves me for who I am. Although he enjoys the sexual pleasure too when we have sex. But, if I were to somehow become not able to have sex – let’s say I get into a car accident and lose the whole lower part of my body – he’d still love me. But if I were to choose to – even though I’m able to – not have sex with him, then he’d feel upset, because he wouldn’t understand why not. And I won’t be able to give a good explanation except “just because Anastasia says so” which I think is the dogmatic part that another commenter mentioned, and that’s why I’m trying to tackle this topic and really understand it rather than just like following a rule.
Side note about being objectified. Reading the books I got the impression that when a woman gives in to having sex other than for having a child , it’s like giving herself away.
We give massage. It eases tension, gives relaxation and pleasure, and connection. We do it out of love. I think of sex in a similar way, like a giving and receiving. I’m not sure how that ties into objectification and sex in lust…
Part 3:
At this point I remembered that Vladimir kissed her right before they “had sex”(although we’ve established those words aren’t appropriate for the experience they shared). That made me think, ok, we’re not talking about old school Protestants(?) who didn’t look at each other when having sex and did it with their underwear on, because it was supposed to be only doing the bare minimum for creating a child, lol.
And then I went back to reading that part in the book. (I should have done this from the beginning, eh?) p.60- 69 from book 1.
- He didn’t feel aroused with fleshly desires even when he saw her naked
- He was haunted by the prospect of a son
- He felt excitement and satisfaction from the experience (sex without lust can have those things)
- There was something in her that belonged not to a single woman I had known (I think that’s purity)
- “Only men and women sincerely desiring to have a child between them”: so yes, it seems like she’s saying sex is only for that occasion. “To give of yourself so that a Man can come into the world” So it seems that’s the only time a woman should give of herself, more for the child rather than for the man having sex with (that’s just my interpretation)
- “To experience God-given grace.” So to refrain from sex is for this purpose, to experience that grace when conceiving a child .. saving sex for that
- Real satisfaction can’t be easily obtained just from physical desire
- “The poor deceived women who ate ignorant of this, spend their whole lives accepting nothing but suffering and searching for the grace they have lost. But they are searching for it in the wrong places. No woman can restrain a man from fornication if she allows herself to submit to him merely to satisfy his carnal needs. If that has happened, their life together will not be a happy one. Their conjugal life is only an illusion of togetherness, a lie, a deception accepted by conventions for the woman immediately becomes a fornicator, regardless of whether she is married to the man or not.” P.63 Ahh this says everything. Yes, now I’m convinced that she is indeed saying that sex should only reserved for when desiring to have a child.
- Children sense the falsity of union.. ouch!
Reflection: so, according to the books, my union with my husband is a false one. And our child was born of that and is aware of that. What a painful thing. If I can give myself some slack, I didn’t know of this book before.
Although I’ll still say, it was not “as a result of carnal pleasures ALONE”. We do love each other… even if it’s not perfect or pure. And good news, she says there is a way to correct the situation (in response to Vladimir’s question); “mutual striving to co create. Sincerity and purity of motive.”
So even if a couple started out as a false union they might be able to get back to “right track” if they abstain from usual sex and adopt a pure mind and have a sincere striving for co creation…
On a personal note I don’t think this can happen with my husband because he hasn’t even read the book yet and even then I doubt he’ll want to change. But my blessings to any couple who does this.
“Sex by itself (my insertion: probably to mean, without desire to have a child. Since “love” can be fake, as explained in previous statements about false union) is very bad. Leads man away from truth, destroys families, enormous amount of energy wasted”
Energy: that’s something I thought about but didn’t write before. I was thinking when I wrote the previous parts, how “but oh, sex is how my husband and I exchange energy.” But according to Anastasia it’s being wasted. Makes sense, since sex has the power to create life.
•darkness acts through women, exploring their beauty. Ok now the Adam and Eve and the Apple story makes more sense!
•OMG THIS PART! Page 66. “It IS absolutely necessary (to overcome these dark forces’ influences)” and the people who can do it are “women”!! Me!😭
Ok bye for now everyone who’s reading this, about to go piss off my husband by telling him I’m never gonna have sex with him again, be right back🥲
… just kidding, not going right this minute, I’ll finish writing this and have to think about it.
“Is possible only when you desire to have a child and the woman wants the same from you. When she loves you.” I do love my husband. At least I think so. But we’re not desiring a baby now. We just had one recently, for one thing.
“That can happen only a few times during one’s whole life!”
Response: “that is enough for your whole life to be happy.”
There, she’s settled it! I must say, Matthew, you’re right. (If you’re still reading this long thing)
“I have helped save you from a terrible, harmful and sinful appetite” maybe she’s trying to help me now too.
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Ok, so, reading the book like that, and following her argument step by step, everything makes sense and I’m convinced of what she says. But practicing it in real life is a whole another thing. I still don’t know what to say to my husband. Poor him. And I’m afraid of looking like a fool, to a crazy person, or not caring and mean. I’m even more afraid of regretting this if our relationship is to become very bad because of this. Well then, you might say, it was a false union anyways. Even then, I love him, and through the ups and downs we’ve had we’ve tried to hold on and create a happy family, for our daughter’s sake too.
And that worries me too, about my daughter. If I want to pass on this info to her, shouldn’t I model it?
Well there it is ladies and gentlemen. My thoughts so far. Not sure what I’ll do with it. I could spend the rest of my life not acting on it, keeping up the status quo. I don’t know. Will see. Thanks for reading.
